[30.8.2006 23:06] [INFO] Now logging to . [30.8.2006 23:06] [INFO] Query view for ``SabineCretella'' opened. [30.8.2006 23:06] === SabineCretella ``New Now Know How'' [30.8.2006 23:06] === SabineCretella: member of #wikimedia-otrs and #wikimedia [30.8.2006 23:06] === SabineCretella: attached to irc.freenode.net ``http://freenode.net/'' [30.8.2006 23:06] === SabineCretella is identified to services [30.8.2006 23:06] --- End of WHOIS information for SabineCretella. [30.8.2006 23:06] ping [30.8.2006 23:07] Hi [30.8.2006 23:08] you pinged me? [30.8.2006 23:08] sorry I don't know how to do the same ... don't remember the command [30.8.2006 23:08] I didn't, I said "ping" :) [30.8.2006 23:08] anyway. [30.8.2006 23:08] yes :-) [30.8.2006 23:09] I see you are in new languages subcommitee [30.8.2006 23:09] is it a part of SPcom? [30.8.2006 23:09] in a private message and that is what I don't know how to do it [30.8.2006 23:09] yes it is a subcommittee of spcom but that does not mean I am also in spcom [30.8.2006 23:09] okay. [30.8.2006 23:10] do you know about the Incubator, http://incubator.wikimedia.org ? [30.8.2006 23:10] anyway: if I can help you, let me know [30.8.2006 23:10] yes, I know the incubator wiki [30.8.2006 23:10] yes, you can :) [30.8.2006 23:10] well [30.8.2006 23:10] we are preparing a policy for new languages, and I thing you're the right people to know about it [30.8.2006 23:11] *think [30.8.2006 23:11] there is already a proposal [30.8.2006 23:11] moment [30.8.2006 23:11] okay [30.8.2006 23:11] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Creation_of_new_languages_for_existing_projects [30.8.2006 23:12] yes, I read that [30.8.2006 23:12] however, it's not really a policy proposal, more like an essay ;) [30.8.2006 23:12] yes - but it is the basis to get there [30.8.2006 23:13] we wrote our proposal to the spc com [30.8.2006 23:13] and that basis is included there - it will be discussed during one of the next sessions [30.8.2006 23:14] well: what would you propose [30.8.2006 23:14] well, we didn't know about this and did it the other way around - we actually made a proposal on incubator and discussed it on foundation-l [30.8.2006 23:15] http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/I:NLR [30.8.2006 23:16] what we would like to avoid is the vote - there are too many political votes around that simply don't make sense - people who are not interested in a language should not vote for it [30.8.2006 23:17] or people who just think: we don't need another wiki with regional languages ... well: these can create huge problems to the creation of a valid project [30.8.2006 23:17] I think we can agree the current Request for new languages don't work [30.8.2006 23:17] *requests [30.8.2006 23:17] no - it doesn't work at all [30.8.2006 23:17] there you are right [30.8.2006 23:18] see: I would even create a new wikipedia if I see onl three people building a good amount of content on the incubator [30.8.2006 23:18] yes. [30.8.2006 23:18] the problems arise often when then for one or the other cause that person breaks away [30.8.2006 23:18] we had that on nap.wikipedia ... and things got slower [30.8.2006 23:19] I see [30.8.2006 23:19] but: the project is growing nevertheless [30.8.2006 23:20] we just need to find a minimum of ready pages to get the wikipedia I would say - no need of votes - if people are able to create 500 pages sooner or later others will come and take up the project [30.8.2006 23:20] besides that: there are many ways to add valid contents with the bot [30.8.2006 23:20] so you say the only requirement should be number of pages? [30.8.2006 23:20] so once there are these 500 basic pages I would suggest using the bot to create pages of cities + calendar pages that stimulate people to work [30.8.2006 23:21] well: one of the basics [30.8.2006 23:21] of course we need to be sure that we have to deal with a unique language [30.8.2006 23:21] there's another big BUT [30.8.2006 23:21] who would approve the new languages? [30.8.2006 23:21] there are also languages that don't have an ISO code right now [30.8.2006 23:21] yep... [30.8.2006 23:21] the board approves the creation - just like now [30.8.2006 23:22] we have the problem with the iso codes everyday on wiktinaryz [30.8.2006 23:22] so we know how difficult that stuff is [30.8.2006 23:22] and we therefore would like to co-operate con iso [30.8.2006 23:22] Anthere: [30.8.2006 23:22] Besides, I see you wrote "The Foundation will also have to approve the domain". Errrrrrrr. I'd prefer we avoid such bottleneck. How about something like "if at least 20 votes with a very large majority", no approval needed. If less votes or less obvious support, then, the Foundation or the spc must approve before creation ? [30.8.2006 23:23] that is something I cannot decide [30.8.2006 23:23] that has to be decided by spc [30.8.2006 23:23] we proposed some basic requests [30.8.2006 23:23] a second ... I'll try to find the e-mail [30.8.2006 23:24] This will be difficult. :( [30.8.2006 23:24] no - the one I sent to the spc committee [30.8.2006 23:25] I mean, the approval process will be dificult [30.8.2006 23:26] what we want is that some prerequisites are fulfilled and then the creation of the wiki is automatic [30.8.2006 23:27] like: 10 native speakers support (that does not mean that all 10 have to edit) [30.8.2006 23:27] the UI must be localised (on betawiki) [30.8.2006 23:27] for languages who don't have a iso code the swadesh list needs to be compiled [30.8.2006 23:27] a certain amount of pages must be on incubator (or testwiki) [30.8.2006 23:28] if there is no iso code it must be requested [30.8.2006 23:28] in that way a wiki can grow anyway [30.8.2006 23:28] and the survival is assured once it has its own domain [30.8.2006 23:28] things will become much easier when we have the multilingual mediawiki [30.8.2006 23:29] the problem is [30.8.2006 23:29] the Incubator already works [30.8.2006 23:29] but, there is no policy [30.8.2006 23:29] we have about 45 languages there [30.8.2006 23:30] that is something we will have to propose and create [30.8.2006 23:30] and we would like to avoid to be some kind of language police [30.8.2006 23:30] and instead help projects to get on their way [30.8.2006 23:30] language police? [30.8.2006 23:30] well: if you say that a wiki for example cannot be created [30.8.2006 23:30] people will understand it as if we are playing the language police [30.8.2006 23:31] ah, yes [30.8.2006 23:31] instead we want sane projects [30.8.2006 23:31] without having too much hurdles [30.8.2006 23:31] so that people can work [30.8.2006 23:31] and will have their wiki as soon as the requisites are fulfilled [30.8.2006 23:31] a certain amount of pages must be on incubator (or testwiki) - what amount, in your opinion? [30.8.2006 23:32] having the multilingual mediawiki it will be like having a multilingual wikipedia since there will be "inner wiki links" as well as interwiki links [30.8.2006 23:32] I'd say for languages with iso code 200 and for languages without iso code 500 [30.8.2006 23:32] for the simple fact that having 500 if there is no iso code it will be easier to obtain the code from iso [30.8.2006 23:33] aha. I agree with you, however, I'm afraid of all the bureaucracy [30.8.2006 23:33] if we create facts on the ground it will be difficult for other people to say: this is not a valid project [30.8.2006 23:33] it is not much burocracy [30.8.2006 23:33] it will take much less time than all the discussions and voting now [30.8.2006 23:34] yes, but I mean approving the policy itself [30.8.2006 23:34] that will be some kind of headache the five of us will have ;-) [30.8.2006 23:35] who 'five of you'? :) [30.8.2006 23:35] Ascánder, Berto d'Sera, JHS, GerardM and me [30.8.2006 23:35] is this your subcommitee? [30.8.2006 23:35] for now yes [30.8.2006 23:35] then you need to update the page ;) [30.8.2006 23:36] well: I am waiting for the open meeting tomorrow to understand who is going to chair the subcommitte and if we are all approved [30.8.2006 23:36] ascander is not very active lately [30.8.2006 23:36] so it could be that we remain in four :-( [30.8.2006 23:37] eh [30.8.2006 23:37] you know [30.8.2006 23:37] probably I'll get the chair for the subcom, but that is not sure by now [30.8.2006 23:37] we people from Incubator are actually interested in the policy, quite a lot [30.8.2006 23:37] at least I did not get an official notice [30.8.2006 23:37] the only thing I would tell people from the incubator is: do as if that is your wikipedia and create contents [30.8.2006 23:38] at a certain point the project will be so evident that nobody will be able to say "no that project cannot be created" [30.8.2006 23:38] no, I don't mean people creating the actual projects. [30.8.2006 23:38] I mean us, Incubator admins [30.8.2006 23:38] how many of you are admins? [30.8.2006 23:39] or how many would be interested? [30.8.2006 23:39] Angela (inactive), dbmag9 and me (bureaucrat). [30.8.2006 23:39] maybe once we have the ok to go ahead with the subcom we simply have an open online meeting [30.8.2006 23:39] or a meeting between the incubator admins and the subcom [30.8.2006 23:40] yes, that would be neat. [30.8.2006 23:40] Angela is in the com com as well ... I'll try to talk to her and ask her to come to the meeting - it's a period she is not very active [30.8.2006 23:41] probably because she is leaving the board [30.8.2006 23:41] and wants to "reorder" things [30.8.2006 23:41] from which wikipedias do you come? [30.8.2006 23:42] I mean are you from en.wikipedia or others? [30.8.2006 23:42] dbmag is from en [30.8.2006 23:42] I'm from cs and somehow reached the Meta stuff [30.8.2006 23:42] http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Dbmag9/Sandbox <-- this is dbmag's idea in a nutshell [30.8.2006 23:44] that is even more burocracy ... why not let people start simply to do things on the incubator? so they can invite others to join them and grow the community? [30.8.2006 23:45] we do that [30.8.2006 23:46] so let them create and work on them - if they are not serious about their project it will die anyway [30.8.2006 23:46] the point is, we don't want to be invaded by crap [30.8.2006 23:46] then there must be a time limit [30.8.2006 23:46] that means: if there is not a certain amount of weekly activity after a certain period the project gets frozen [30.8.2006 23:47] how do you want to measure weekly activity? [30.8.2006 23:47] let's say only one person is working - and has also a daytime job [30.8.2006 23:47] how many edits can that person do a week? [30.8.2006 23:47] or is willing to do [30.8.2006 23:48] because often you need to start alone and then other people come up after quite a long time [30.8.2006 23:48] I get your point; however, how are we supposed to monitor that for ~45 test languages? [30.8.2006 23:48] and that is the hardest period [30.8.2006 23:48] I have to talk to GerardM and Xirzon how the recent changes will work in multilingual mediawiki environment [30.8.2006 23:49] if these can be shown "per language" we can also have some kind of counter per language [30.8.2006 23:49] isn't there a multimedial MW already? I mean, everyone can choose his language [30.8.2006 23:49] just get a Incubator person as your subcom's advisor or whatever :P [30.8.2006 23:50] no, multilingual mediawiki is different [30.8.2006 23:50] it has to do with multilingual contents and not the UI [30.8.2006 23:50] that means: you have our UI and you see for example only contents in the language of your UI if you choose to do so [30.8.2006 23:50] aha [30.8.2006 23:51] it will avoid all these links at top of a page like we now have it on meta when a page is there in multiple languages [30.8.2006 23:51] multilingua mediawiki should be able to give the illusion to have an "own wikipedia" with own domain already [30.8.2006 23:52] but I really have to ask for exact information [30.8.2006 23:53] I think you do need someone from Incubator however. I mean, you are creating the rules, but we will need to apply them to the place [30.8.2006 23:54] yes - that's why a combined meeting would make sense [30.8.2006 23:54] it's good that you contacted me [30.8.2006 23:54] yep [30.8.2006 23:54] I did not know how things on incubator went actually [30.8.2006 23:54] the only thing I understood is that all test pages from meta were transferred there [30.8.2006 23:55] that's bad. have someone watch the place and be informed, probably? [30.8.2006 23:55] and that you simply can create a test project [30.8.2006 23:55] I'll talk to the others - I think we should co-operate anyway - so that if there is something we must know you just tell us [30.8.2006 23:56] okay [30.8.2006 23:56] on the other way round: we can tell you what we have in mind so that you can see if that matches [30.8.2006 23:56] or if there is something that cannot work at all [30.8.2006 23:57] I am not sure now if I can simply invite people to join the subcom - we are not really "there" right now [30.8.2006 23:58] this means: we will be there sooner or later to start to work [31.8.2006 0:01] Timichal: what about you being part of the spc language subcom? [31.8.2006 0:02] I'd be more than glad [31.8.2006 0:02] ok, so I'll propose you [31.8.2006 0:02] thank you [31.8.2006 0:02] can I find your e-mail in one of the mailing lists? [31.8.2006 0:02] so I'd copy you when I write the proposal [31.8.2006 0:03] or you just give it to me here without @ sign [31.8.2006 0:03] ah, you mean address :) [31.8.2006 0:03] timichalattimichaldotnet [31.8.2006 0:03] ok, great - just a second that I copy it to my addressbook [31.8.2006 0:04] okay [31.8.2006 0:04] done [31.8.2006 0:05] ok, I'll send a general mail to the spclist + the members of the subcom including you [31.8.2006 0:05] and I hope they will all be happy :-) [31.8.2006 0:05] cool! thanks [31.8.2006 0:05] well: I have to take my kids to bed now ... it's midnight and they should already be sleeping ;-) [31.8.2006 0:05] they find it fun when I am so concentrated on the computer :-) [31.8.2006 0:06] see you later :) [31.8.2006 0:06] ciao :-)